It’s…far more complicated than just a parent hoping their child would turn out a particular way.
Sulla is /based on/ Al, ultimately. It’s got to be near impossible for Brendan to /not/ project his memories and feelings for Al onto Sulla.
Combine that with the fact that he helped her design her own bodies over time, it’s understandable that he has a particular template in his head that will be hard to dislodge, at first.
(And I agree with you, it’s chilling nontheless. I wasn’t meaning to argue the point, I’m just fascinated at how this both does and doesn’t resemble a typical trans-coming-out experience.)
Not to mention, from a purely scientific point of view, Brendan is probably concerned with the programming involved with Sulla’s artificial sentiency. To have that big a deviation of Sulla’s AI from the original source–that of a male to a female perspective–would no doubt give Brendan the engineer pause for concern that this is an issue rather than an evolution. This is another reason why Sulla (as well as the audience) should be patient but firm in guiding his realization process.
While there’s a lot of deeper issues, I don’t think Brendan is coming at it from a purely engineering standpoint. (I know you didn’t imply he was, but still.)
I continue to not be a robot, but my parents have said the same thing to me and my sister INTO OUR LATE 20S that they had a better idea of who we were then we did, “I know you better than you know yourself”, long after we moved out. So while this is deeper than just that, it’s still something very loving, well meaning, and compassionate parents can say to their kids who are trying to express their truth.
That said, he wants to be comforting, and he’s learning. I hope he and Sulla can talk about this and learn from it, later, to fully process it.
Being father to a young child, this concerns me a lot. Much of childhood early memory is erased by the brain. It’s something understable, as I don’t know how many of us would survive to remember the anxiety of birth, but that means that for a part of your life, you have to rely on other people (the parents), to know what you did, how you did, who you were. I hope I’ll be able to overcome this fact when my child will be grown.
And secondly, I have hard times to be at ease with the fact its (his, her, their? what should I use for a child who hasn’t made a thought of it? I wouldn’t know as non-english speaker – english being saxon, I use here the german gender neutral pronoun translation) gender identity may not be defined by know. When asked if it’s a boy or girl, I answer that it will be up to him to decide later on (up to them wouldn’t translate in my language), but I don’t know if it would prefer to be supported in its current gender identity/fluidity whatever it is(and I say gender and not attributed sex), or kept in the wide but frightening freedom of openness…
Yo, h0! I’m glad you’re devoting all this time to trying to understand, it’s a heartening thing to see, for a number of ways.
The short answer is, it’s complicated, and normally it’s best to ask the person in question. But, until you hear otherwise from them, when talking about the past of a transgender person, it is best to use the name and pronouns that they presently use.
Frankly though, I’ve definitely met the ‘I think I know better than you’ mentality. Frankly, I’m worried about how my parents would have reacted if I hadn’t come out to them in the very specific way that I did–with lots of citations and research. Because until then, they would always drop the ‘I think I know you better’ on me.
Brendan behaves like all parents want to be: To let go of the flyer and put a hold in a busy life, to take the time for pulling out the truth, very cautiously, to give a strong arm and an understanding shoulder to his child no matter what.
Now, if he just could give Al the same symphathy and understanding!
Now this brings up a question that I have had since the beginning of the story regarding Sulla’s status as being transgendered. If her AI is simply downloaded into another body (presumably created female from the start and therefore bears no evidence of previous maleness), why would she be considered transgendered? Does the memory of having been created initially as a male constitute transgenderedness in an non-organic person? Is it because Brendan sees her as trans because he originally made her in Al’s image? Many transgendered people I have talked to are forced to deal with a trans identity because they are forced to deal with the physicality of their transness–having a differently gendered body, not being able to pass, or have kids without certain accommodations, or having to take hormones to become/maintain the gender they identify as–Sulla has none of these issues. Many trans people have said to me if they if they didn’t have these things to deal with, they would not consider themselves trans, and in fact, older trans people who transitioned in the 50s through 70s and could pass, do not consider themselves trans, but the gender they are. It would be great if we could have some clarification on this, as from a logical standpoint, I want to understand how Sulla sees this.
Hi, trans person here to provide some answers – first off the term is “transgender”, not “transgendered”. As in “a transgender person”.
I would say Sulla is trans because she was assigned the “male” label and was expected to fill that role and have a male identity, but she found out that wasn’t who she really was and began her transition.
Transitioning is not just changing your body, it can also be changing your name and pronouns and how others relate to you. Even if your body looks and functions exactly like a cisgender (not trans) person’s body, that experience of having to break out of your assigned gender role and everyone’s expectations of you is reason enough to identify as trans.
Hi Nat,
Sorry about how I was using the word transgender–even though I am a queer person, I am from the generation where using it in that context was still acceptable. I do pride myself on being “hip” enough not to use transsexual though. While I understand the idea of changing other people’s expectations of you, I don’t see how that applies to Sulla outside of Brendan. Since she has very little interaction with society in general (she doesn’t go to school, and I don’t even think Lucy knows of her existence), she has not had to deal with anyone besides Brendan perceiving her as a boy. Effectively, outside of Brendan, she has never had a trans experience, and since he is now on board with her as a girl, no one else has experienced her as anything but a girl. Does just the memory of Brendan’s initial perception be enough to make her trans?
I think this is almost like “if a tree falls in the forest and noone hears…” but I’d say that it’s up to the individual to define one’s identity and it’s more about feeling a certain way than checking off boxes on a list. So if Sulla considers herself trans, she’s trans. And I actually think her experience of “otherness” from being a robot could enhance her want to identify as trans (based on my own experience of intersecting marginalised identities)
One of the things I love about Sulla as a character is that not only does her experience as a human-passing robot serve as an allegory for being trans, she also literally identifies as a different gender than the one assigned to her – the most basic definition of being trans. So even if she hasn’t had to endure quite the same as some trans people (could be argued that no two trans lives are the same) due to her gender specifically, her experiences and insecurities surrounding her robot identity are so relatable that no matter what, she’s still excellent trans representation.
You have a comment nested under m&m’s comment – is that the one you mean? If it doesn’t appear for you, try clearing your cache.
EDIT: Never mind, I found your other comment and approved it.
Thank you! Safety’s not an issue (I’m an independent adult and my parents aren’t like that anyway), but I’m still not anticipating it being a super awesome conversation.
Thank you. I’m an adult and may end up doing it over the phone, so safety’s not an issue, but it’s good advice. Emotional well-being may be an issue, because it’s going to be a hard conversation no question, so I’m definitely gonna be activating my support network ahead of time.
Hey, Blue, Ellie B.,
I don’t know what’s going on, but there seems to be some glitch in the comments. I’m seeing links to edit/request deletion of Ellie B’s posts, but I’m not Ellie B.
You’re probably not going to ever get to understand it from a logical standpoint, because it’s a very personal issue. The norms of trans culture change a lot from community to community and generation to generation. Case in point, if you’ve talked to a lot of older trans people you have probably not got a lot of flack for “transgendered,” but most people I know would tell you it’s an adjective, not a verb (ie transgender, not transgendered — we do not transgender ourselves, we are transgender). Likewise, “transsexual” and “transvestite” used to be preferred terminology, and now a lot of people consider them insults. To your point, some people stop calling themselves trans once they’ve transitioned as far as they intend to because they are *done* transitioning, some people continue to call themselves trans because they *have transitioned*. It’s an individual experience, and kind of…context-dependent. A twenty-year-old from Portland and a sixty-year-old from the deep south will label the same things differently.
That said, you are seeing Sulla *right now* having a differently gendered body, not being able to pass, and having to fight to undergo modifications to pass as a girl. She does have those problems, and even if her physical transition is a mess easier than it is for a human being, she’s still going to have trouble with social aspects and potentially with people who think that since she was “born as” a boy, and since her AI is based on a neural scan of a man, she’s not really a girl. In the present day storyline, even though she has completed the equivalent to a medical transition, she still *has had* the experiences we’re seeing here, is still the same person who went through this, is very much a person who transitioned and not a new, different person who did not as it feels like you’re implying. Her story is not a 1:1 of a transgender human’s story, but I’d still consider her trans.
Your assumption is that the person the AI was grafted from was ever a guy gender identity wise. Many late transitioners struggle throughout their lives, alot have issues with denial, shame and internal transphobia that prevented them from transitioning. Family being one of them. The end result is a depresses potentially suicidal person. Gender dysphoria is not an easy thing to live with, and not always easily recognized even by the person experiencing it. Some mistake it for being gay or lesbian. Others like myself assumed that all boys really want to be girls–it is just one of those secrets your not supposed to talk about.
Ugh this is really heartbreaking. They are both having different conversations. Brendan isn’t hearing Sulla because he’s so freaked out by her scratching escalating into self harm. Sulla can tell that Brendan isn’t listening to her and it’s making her more desperate. He’s saying, “stop it!” and grabbing her hands to stop her from hurting herself, she’s hearing, “stop talking about things I don’t want to know about you.” Have they had this conversation before???
If not I imagine Brendan is thinking about Al’s history with depression, cutting, being suicidal to the point of terminal medical neglect; all this chapter is Brendan having nightmares of Al bleeding out and then being a parent to Sulla. If they haven’t discussed gender before, I would assume he thinks Sulla is saying “I am a program, not a person, I shouldn’t exist as a human, and I want to stop existing,” like a child inheriting suicidal depression from a genetic parent, and I am hoping the reveal being “I am transgender, I’m a girl” is going to be a huge relief to him.
I feel for both of them. For Brendan, this must feel a bit like losing Al all over again—even though he knows Sulla is a different person. Thank goodness he has a little experience with coming out (though being gay is very different than being trans). I’ve heard even the most accepting parents of trans children often grieve, and I’ve seen it happen with a friend who’s son is FtM. The fact Sulla was originally supposed to be Al must make it even worse.
I think it’s interesting that Sulla had the itching response to not belonging, and Al has been itching at his arm (picking the thread of his shirt) for the last few flashes of him. Not sure if that’s related or not, but it’s something I definitely noticed.
Come to think of it, that was about the age I was when I realized that only upgrading to new bodies that are very similar to the previous ones is stupid and clearly wrong.
Aww, Sulla speaks probably like 25 languages but she doesn’t have one to talk about what her body is and is supposed to be; going to have to develop it for herself as she goes.
Oh, Sulla.
Shut up and listen to her, Brendan.
damn brendan, chill
that first panel is CHILLING. brrr.
It’s…far more complicated than just a parent hoping their child would turn out a particular way.
Sulla is /based on/ Al, ultimately. It’s got to be near impossible for Brendan to /not/ project his memories and feelings for Al onto Sulla.
Combine that with the fact that he helped her design her own bodies over time, it’s understandable that he has a particular template in his head that will be hard to dislodge, at first.
(And I agree with you, it’s chilling nontheless. I wasn’t meaning to argue the point, I’m just fascinated at how this both does and doesn’t resemble a typical trans-coming-out experience.)
Not to mention, from a purely scientific point of view, Brendan is probably concerned with the programming involved with Sulla’s artificial sentiency. To have that big a deviation of Sulla’s AI from the original source–that of a male to a female perspective–would no doubt give Brendan the engineer pause for concern that this is an issue rather than an evolution. This is another reason why Sulla (as well as the audience) should be patient but firm in guiding his realization process.
While there’s a lot of deeper issues, I don’t think Brendan is coming at it from a purely engineering standpoint. (I know you didn’t imply he was, but still.)
I continue to not be a robot, but my parents have said the same thing to me and my sister INTO OUR LATE 20S that they had a better idea of who we were then we did, “I know you better than you know yourself”, long after we moved out. So while this is deeper than just that, it’s still something very loving, well meaning, and compassionate parents can say to their kids who are trying to express their truth.
That said, he wants to be comforting, and he’s learning. I hope he and Sulla can talk about this and learn from it, later, to fully process it.
Being father to a young child, this concerns me a lot. Much of childhood early memory is erased by the brain. It’s something understable, as I don’t know how many of us would survive to remember the anxiety of birth, but that means that for a part of your life, you have to rely on other people (the parents), to know what you did, how you did, who you were. I hope I’ll be able to overcome this fact when my child will be grown.
And secondly, I have hard times to be at ease with the fact its (his, her, their? what should I use for a child who hasn’t made a thought of it? I wouldn’t know as non-english speaker – english being saxon, I use here the german gender neutral pronoun translation) gender identity may not be defined by know. When asked if it’s a boy or girl, I answer that it will be up to him to decide later on (up to them wouldn’t translate in my language), but I don’t know if it would prefer to be supported in its current gender identity/fluidity whatever it is(and I say gender and not attributed sex), or kept in the wide but frightening freedom of openness…
Yo, h0! I’m glad you’re devoting all this time to trying to understand, it’s a heartening thing to see, for a number of ways.
The short answer is, it’s complicated, and normally it’s best to ask the person in question. But, until you hear otherwise from them, when talking about the past of a transgender person, it is best to use the name and pronouns that they presently use.
Frankly though, I’ve definitely met the ‘I think I know better than you’ mentality. Frankly, I’m worried about how my parents would have reacted if I hadn’t come out to them in the very specific way that I did–with lots of citations and research. Because until then, they would always drop the ‘I think I know you better’ on me.
This is all fascinating. So many different things going on at once.
Brendan behaves like all parents want to be: To let go of the flyer and put a hold in a busy life, to take the time for pulling out the truth, very cautiously, to give a strong arm and an understanding shoulder to his child no matter what.
Now, if he just could give Al the same symphathy and understanding!
Now this brings up a question that I have had since the beginning of the story regarding Sulla’s status as being transgendered. If her AI is simply downloaded into another body (presumably created female from the start and therefore bears no evidence of previous maleness), why would she be considered transgendered? Does the memory of having been created initially as a male constitute transgenderedness in an non-organic person? Is it because Brendan sees her as trans because he originally made her in Al’s image? Many transgendered people I have talked to are forced to deal with a trans identity because they are forced to deal with the physicality of their transness–having a differently gendered body, not being able to pass, or have kids without certain accommodations, or having to take hormones to become/maintain the gender they identify as–Sulla has none of these issues. Many trans people have said to me if they if they didn’t have these things to deal with, they would not consider themselves trans, and in fact, older trans people who transitioned in the 50s through 70s and could pass, do not consider themselves trans, but the gender they are. It would be great if we could have some clarification on this, as from a logical standpoint, I want to understand how Sulla sees this.
Hi, trans person here to provide some answers – first off the term is “transgender”, not “transgendered”. As in “a transgender person”.
I would say Sulla is trans because she was assigned the “male” label and was expected to fill that role and have a male identity, but she found out that wasn’t who she really was and began her transition.
Transitioning is not just changing your body, it can also be changing your name and pronouns and how others relate to you. Even if your body looks and functions exactly like a cisgender (not trans) person’s body, that experience of having to break out of your assigned gender role and everyone’s expectations of you is reason enough to identify as trans.
Trans people sometimes don’t wanna be known as trans cause it hurts their prospects in life. Otherwise see Nat.
Hi Nat,
Sorry about how I was using the word transgender–even though I am a queer person, I am from the generation where using it in that context was still acceptable. I do pride myself on being “hip” enough not to use transsexual though. While I understand the idea of changing other people’s expectations of you, I don’t see how that applies to Sulla outside of Brendan. Since she has very little interaction with society in general (she doesn’t go to school, and I don’t even think Lucy knows of her existence), she has not had to deal with anyone besides Brendan perceiving her as a boy. Effectively, outside of Brendan, she has never had a trans experience, and since he is now on board with her as a girl, no one else has experienced her as anything but a girl. Does just the memory of Brendan’s initial perception be enough to make her trans?
I think this is almost like “if a tree falls in the forest and noone hears…” but I’d say that it’s up to the individual to define one’s identity and it’s more about feeling a certain way than checking off boxes on a list. So if Sulla considers herself trans, she’s trans. And I actually think her experience of “otherness” from being a robot could enhance her want to identify as trans (based on my own experience of intersecting marginalised identities)
One of the things I love about Sulla as a character is that not only does her experience as a human-passing robot serve as an allegory for being trans, she also literally identifies as a different gender than the one assigned to her – the most basic definition of being trans. So even if she hasn’t had to endure quite the same as some trans people (could be argued that no two trans lives are the same) due to her gender specifically, her experiences and insecurities surrounding her robot identity are so relatable that no matter what, she’s still excellent trans representation.
I love Sulla a lot :’)
I just posted a comment, but it didn’t show up. Did I post it wrong?
You have a comment nested under m&m’s comment – is that the one you mean? If it doesn’t appear for you, try clearing your cache.
EDIT: Never mind, I found your other comment and approved it.
Actual physical burst of empathetic shock went through me here. I want to go hug all the trans people I know now.
Funny how other people think they have a better idea of who and what you are.
In related news, I really need to come out to my parents this week…
For what it’s worth, you have all my thoughts…
Thank you!
Good luck, be safe *snugs*
Thank you! Safety’s not an issue (I’m an independent adult and my parents aren’t like that anyway), but I’m still not anticipating it being a super awesome conversation.
Just a mostly anonymous internet person, but thinking of you!
Thanks! A significant portion of my support network is anonymous internet folks. I love my anonymous internet folks.
Good luck, be strong! And see if you can set up a safe place to go in case they don’t take it well.
Thank you. I’m an adult and may end up doing it over the phone, so safety’s not an issue, but it’s good advice. Emotional well-being may be an issue, because it’s going to be a hard conversation no question, so I’m definitely gonna be activating my support network ahead of time.
Aww.
I sure, blame the software, Brenden must be an EE.
Let the software decide if it wants to take the Blue pill, or if it wants the Pink pill…
Hey, Blue, Ellie B.,
I don’t know what’s going on, but there seems to be some glitch in the comments. I’m seeing links to edit/request deletion of Ellie B’s posts, but I’m not Ellie B.
You’re probably not going to ever get to understand it from a logical standpoint, because it’s a very personal issue. The norms of trans culture change a lot from community to community and generation to generation. Case in point, if you’ve talked to a lot of older trans people you have probably not got a lot of flack for “transgendered,” but most people I know would tell you it’s an adjective, not a verb (ie transgender, not transgendered — we do not transgender ourselves, we are transgender). Likewise, “transsexual” and “transvestite” used to be preferred terminology, and now a lot of people consider them insults. To your point, some people stop calling themselves trans once they’ve transitioned as far as they intend to because they are *done* transitioning, some people continue to call themselves trans because they *have transitioned*. It’s an individual experience, and kind of…context-dependent. A twenty-year-old from Portland and a sixty-year-old from the deep south will label the same things differently.
That said, you are seeing Sulla *right now* having a differently gendered body, not being able to pass, and having to fight to undergo modifications to pass as a girl. She does have those problems, and even if her physical transition is a mess easier than it is for a human being, she’s still going to have trouble with social aspects and potentially with people who think that since she was “born as” a boy, and since her AI is based on a neural scan of a man, she’s not really a girl. In the present day storyline, even though she has completed the equivalent to a medical transition, she still *has had* the experiences we’re seeing here, is still the same person who went through this, is very much a person who transitioned and not a new, different person who did not as it feels like you’re implying. Her story is not a 1:1 of a transgender human’s story, but I’d still consider her trans.
Thanks, this is illuminating. You make a good point about how accepted terminology changes with time, place, and person.
Your assumption is that the person the AI was grafted from was ever a guy gender identity wise. Many late transitioners struggle throughout their lives, alot have issues with denial, shame and internal transphobia that prevented them from transitioning. Family being one of them. The end result is a depresses potentially suicidal person. Gender dysphoria is not an easy thing to live with, and not always easily recognized even by the person experiencing it. Some mistake it for being gay or lesbian. Others like myself assumed that all boys really want to be girls–it is just one of those secrets your not supposed to talk about.
Ugh this is really heartbreaking. They are both having different conversations. Brendan isn’t hearing Sulla because he’s so freaked out by her scratching escalating into self harm. Sulla can tell that Brendan isn’t listening to her and it’s making her more desperate. He’s saying, “stop it!” and grabbing her hands to stop her from hurting herself, she’s hearing, “stop talking about things I don’t want to know about you.” Have they had this conversation before???
If not I imagine Brendan is thinking about Al’s history with depression, cutting, being suicidal to the point of terminal medical neglect; all this chapter is Brendan having nightmares of Al bleeding out and then being a parent to Sulla. If they haven’t discussed gender before, I would assume he thinks Sulla is saying “I am a program, not a person, I shouldn’t exist as a human, and I want to stop existing,” like a child inheriting suicidal depression from a genetic parent, and I am hoping the reveal being “I am transgender, I’m a girl” is going to be a huge relief to him.
I hadn’t even considered that seeing someone self harm might really freak Brendo out. Damn. Good point.
I reacted to this the same way as Trina did. Wow.
I feel for both of them. For Brendan, this must feel a bit like losing Al all over again—even though he knows Sulla is a different person. Thank goodness he has a little experience with coming out (though being gay is very different than being trans). I’ve heard even the most accepting parents of trans children often grieve, and I’ve seen it happen with a friend who’s son is FtM. The fact Sulla was originally supposed to be Al must make it even worse.
I think it’s interesting that Sulla had the itching response to not belonging, and Al has been itching at his arm (picking the thread of his shirt) for the last few flashes of him. Not sure if that’s related or not, but it’s something I definitely noticed.
I’M CRYING
You’ve created a person, Brendan. And people don’t do as expected or supposed.
Come to think of it, that was about the age I was when I realized that only upgrading to new bodies that are very similar to the previous ones is stupid and clearly wrong.
Oh, this totally did it. Five chapters and some pages in, and THIS is what made me tear up. Good God.
Aww, Sulla speaks probably like 25 languages but she doesn’t have one to talk about what her body is and is supposed to be; going to have to develop it for herself as she goes.